According to the Associated Press, a Texas man who shot and killed two men he suspected of burglarizing his neighbor's home was cleared of the shootings Monday by a grand jury on June 30.
The 911 phone call was pretty intense, as the man stated he wasn't going to let them get away to a dispatcher.
What do you think? Was this murder? Was this defense of a home? What message does this send homeowners/citizens down the line? Do you keep a gun at home? Would you use it on an attacker? Would you use it on a thief? On someone running away with your stuff?
Share your thoughts!

Yeehaw. Shoot first ask...
Back to page topYeehaw. Shoot first ask questions later, that's the way they do it in Texas anyways.
Maybe this hick could've shot to wound if he was sold on shooting two people?
In my opinion, murder is murder.
If we allow people to take the law into their own hands, that is a slippery slope. It doesn't appear from this story that the burglars were even in this man's house. I understand the need some feel for protection, but if you're on the phone with dispatch, and they say to stay in the house, maybe you should stay in the house.
I will never defend a burglar, but stealing shouldn't constitute murder.
I think the message it sends is one of becoming vigilantes. Police are there to enforce the law, not neighbors. Neighbors should call the police and get a description of the suspects and let due process prevail, not shoot to kill.
I don't own a gun, nor would I ever point it at someone or shoot them if I so choose to own a gun one day. That said, I respect those who do have guns per the constitution, I would just hope they use it in a responsible manner.
In my opinion, this is not using a gun responsibly!
its very plain and simple i...
Back to page topits very plain and simple i bust my butt every day to have nice things for my family and nobody will take that, i have my permit to carry, and i will defend my self
I look at it this way 2...
Back to page topI look at it this way 2 burglers are down, But your right stealing does not constitute murder, and they were not murderd they were killed while stealing there is a difference.
Some say po-tay-toe, some...
Back to page topSome say po-tay-toe, some say poh-tah-toh...
The reason I used the word...
Back to page topThe reason I used the word murdered is from the line in the story, "Horn called 911 and told the dispatcher he had a shotgun and was going to kill the men. The dispatcher pleaded with him not to go outside, but Horn confronted the men with a 12-gauge shotgun and shot both in the back."
I understand the difference you make between murder and killing, and it is an important one, as murder is the unlawful killing of a person with malice aforethought, as defined in Common Law countries.
You're right, there is a difference, but in this case I believe the difference is in the details. The details that this grand jury saw it as lawful. I would think other grand juries may see that differently.
The man told the dispatcher that he was going to kill the men.
Isn't that aforethought?
Again, I'm not defending burglars,, they were wrong, but should not have been "killed" for that.
I also think this is an interesting part of the case, "Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect themselves if it is reasonable to believe they are in mortal danger. In limited circumstances, people also can use deadly force to protect a neighbor's property; for example, if a homeowner asks a neighbor to watch over his property while he's out of town."
He shot the men in the back. That's an interesting way to view mortal danger.
And
"It's not clear whether the neighbor whose home was burglarized asked Horn to watch over his house."
I don't know, it's an interesting story to say the least.
On another note, the story doesn't say the burglars stole anything.
Just as there is a difference between killing and murder, there is also a difference between burglary and theft. Theft is stealing something, burglary is the unlawful entrance of a place.
(I wrote stealing, and I meant burglary in the previous post.)
Shouid I inject race into...
Back to page topShouid I inject race into this?
Would the result be different if the home owner was black and the victims were white? What if the victims were white with the same shooter?
There's no way to prove it, but I say yes.
The two men shot were...
Back to page topThe two men shot were illegal immigrants from Columbia:
http://www.tri-cityherald.com/916/story/226625.html
And, it sounds like some race issues have come up, and there may be another lawsuit to follow:
http://www.star-telegram.com/448/story/735812.html
Here's a pretty straightforward editorial from the Houston Chronicle, as well, that's interesting: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/5868797.html
It's a really interesting case since it touches on a bunch of tabu topics - illegal immigration, race, gun laws...all wrapped into one big mess.
Shawn - there is this pesky...
Back to page topShawn - there is this pesky little thing called the 2nd Amendment that gives citizens the right to bear arms and use them in defense of yourself and your property. Given that the two men in question were BREAKING THE LAW (remember burglary is against the law in this country) and the Texas Castle Doctrine was upheld in this case, your analogy is way off. The courts ruled that it was not murder....that Mr. Horn was defending his and his neighbor's property. Also, one of the burglars did advance on Mr. Horn before turning away. In that case, what was Mr. Horn to do? Wait to get shot or stabbed himself before reacting?
Race has nothing to do with this. Mr. Horn reacted within the law.
Cindy
That's one opinion, Cindy,...
Back to page topThat's one opinion, Cindy, and I share another.
What could Horn have done?
Stay in his house as the dispatcher asked him to do. His life wouldn't have been in danger, police were on the way and he could have helped with the description of the men. In this case, Horn's property was never in need of defense.
Horn acted as a vigilante.
I understand that pesky little amendment, Cindy, I just didn’t think it was written to justify taking the law into one’s own hands, although, I understand the Second Ammendment is often interpreted in different ways.
I think the editorial Joanna pointed out discusses that fairly well.
I understand the law was upheld in this case, but that doesn't mean the law is affective. The law wasn’t designed to protect a vigilante.
This law is what should be in question, along with Horn's lack of judgment. The law should be made more clear to define when and who can be shot, if that is the law.
Again, the editorial points that out.
Our courts are set up to support due process.
People are innocent until proven guilty.
Acting in a manner in which Horn did, simply doesn't support that right.
There was no due process. These men were seen by a citizen as immediately guilty and were going to be brought to justice by a man who was acting irrationally at the time.
Two men were killed for their idiotic action of burglary.
Another man has to live with the fact that he killed two humans.
I simply don't think burglary justifies killing.
okay so thats how you see...
Back to page topokay so thats how you see it, and thats fine shawn stay in your house stay there why people are breaking into the house next door, mabey there family is sleeping in there mabey they have little kids that are sleeping, would you still hide in your house or would you help. or mabey lets reverse that roll you and your family are sleeping in your house your neghibor sees these guys trying to break into your house but just decides not to help and decides to stay inside and do nothing. Hey everybody has certian ways of dealing with certian things, and i understand that but we have the second amendment for a reason we have the right to carry guns, and we have the right to defend our self and others.
What would i have done i would have done, Well i would have done what any body would have done i would have went nextdoor and held them at gun point untill sombody arrived. and if they tried anything they would have gotten shot. End of Story.
Of course I would help my...
Back to page topOf course I would help my neighbor, thielen2001.
But I wouldn't kill in this situation.
My point here is that the second ammendment can be viewed in a number of ways by a variety of people.
But my interpretation of the conceal and carry law is not that it gives people the right to act as vigilantes.
It gives us the right to defend ourselves, sure, but who was being defended in this case?
In the other scenarios you bring up, my view may be different. I was simply stating my view in this case, which didn't involve anyone sleeping.
I am a very good neighbor. I watch my neighbors' houses and am very aware when they are out of town, which was the case in this situation.
I would call the police and try to get a description of the burglars, rather than taking the law into my own hands.
If you read the story, it states that the neighbors were out of town. As a neighbor, I watch out for their property, and if I see something sketchy I call police. I wouldn't shoot to kill.
What if these people were relatives?
What is these people were watching the house and locked themselves out?
What if he shot and killed his neighbor's friend?
Then what?
Is it still justified?
For your information, I have helped my neighbors in many different situations including drunken and disorderly fights, so there's no need to judge me because I believe in the legal process, rather than acting as a vigilante.
Our country has a legal system for a reason. No one person has the right to act as a judge, jury and executioner of the neighborhood.
And for the record, calling the police isn't doing nothing.
I don't think "any body" would go next door and hold two burglars at gun point. I don't think "Any body" would shoot to kill.
That's what makes this an interesting debate and story.
I don't know how many times I have to write that I think the second ammendment is an important one.
I understand it's a right and I understand it means different things to different people. We have the right to carry and conceal, if we so choose.
I just believe that the people who choose to enact that right should be responsible in doing so.
hmmmm, interesting story....
Back to page tophmmmm, interesting story. Before I state my take on this I will share that yes, I have guns in my home, yes I will use them to defend my family, and yes, I am a member of the NRA.
That being said the line "Horn called 911 and told the dispatcher he had a shotgun and was going to kill the men." really bothers me, that's clear intent to kill...that's uncool. The home was not his, and his or his families life was not in danger. I am unclear (perhaps I missed it) if his neighbor was home at the time...I would be very tempted to take action if I knew my neighbors were home and saw this happen, but would hope that I would first call 911 and keep an eye out and approach with caution, with intent to protect my friends, not with intent to kill somebody.
The illegal immigrant issue just makes my blood boil...but that's a side issue. These men are criminals, and were criminal before they robbed that house, so I won't really shed many tears over them being shot and killed, but the guy that shot them acted with intent to kill, and should be punished as such...he was acting offensively, not defensively, the way I see it.
Interesting conundrum to be sure.
What gets me about this is...
Back to page topWhat gets me about this is they were shot in the back and they were stealing from a neighbor. They were not robbing this guy, but a neighbor he didn't even know. Yikes. I agree with dbmasters, the intent to kill is clear and uncool. He didn't choose to scare them away but rather be the judge, jury and executioner... I saw something about this story before and am shocked to see that he was cleared.
Shawn, I do not view the...
Back to page topShawn, I do not view the Second Amendment as a "pesky little amendment".
However, the Castle Doctrine, which in Texas is a "Stand-your-ground Law (No duty to retreat anywhere)", was applied correctly in this case. Even Minnesota has a weak Castle Law: duty to retreat not removed, but deadly force may be used to end invason of home without presence of immediate lethal threat.
If an assailant is outside of my home, I'm dialing 911 and staying inside. However, if the assailant is IN my home, I will do whatever it takes to protect myself and my family. Stuff can be replaced, your family can not. MHO.
Neither do I, crneighbor. It...
Back to page topNeither do I, crneighbor. It was a comment I made in response to wording in Cindy's post, which is why I wrote it that way.
I think the second amendment is important in that it is our right as Americans to bare arms if we so wish.
As I said in my first post:
"I don't own a gun, nor would I ever point it at someone or shoot them if I so choose to own a gun one day. That said, I respect those who do have guns per the constitution, I would just hope they use it in a responsible manner."
I believe in the right to bare arms. I just don't believe that right gives a person a free pass to kill.
Horn used a 12-gauge shotgun. You are going to kill with a gun like that.
And if the law was upheld correctly in this case, I just wonder where this law could be taken by others in the future, if it is not clarified.
In my opinion, a law like this if taken to be open-ended and up for interpretation, is dangerous. It lends itself to a shoot first ask questions later mentality.
That is not what the justice system in our country is about.
Horn had his day in court and the court ruled he was within his right to shoot (in Texas). That said, the other two people didn't have their day in court because Horn took it upon himself to be the judge, jury and executioner.
That's wrong.
My point is that in this case, I think Horn acted irrationally and took the lives of two people in the heat of the moment. He had 911 on the phone and said he was going to kill the men, while the dispatcher begged him not to. He shot the men in the back! I believe that's wrong whether a law protects a person or not.
I also understand doing whatever you can to protect your family and self. I get that and I am right beside you in thinking the same way.
But these men were not in Horn's home. They were not a threat to his family. But look at the outcome.
What I think is most...
Back to page topWhat I think is most interesting is that we all have varying interpretations of the law and how/when it's OK to use a weapon.
I'd like to know what people with conceal/carry permits learn in class in Minnesota.
For anyone who has been through the conceal/carry course (which I have not), could you explain what you discussed there?
I did take the class and do...
Back to page topI did take the class and do have a valid permit. Initially, I wanted the permit more for hunting situations than anything else. However, when I took the class, I was very surprised to find that the emphasis was more on how to protect yourself as a permit holder, than on self defense. The class did go very in depth on situations where one would need to brandish a weapon, let alone fire it, however, the ramifications of doing so were very eye opening. I might still carry a weapon in my vehicle from time to time, but after taking the class, I found the risk/reward of carrying vs having the police called for someone even accidentally seeing it, to be not worth it. This is just my opinion for carrying a weapon on me, personally. I still would aggressively support the legal right of others to carry if they wished to do so. It was stongly suggested to me that if I was to carry, that I retain the business card of a lawyer who was very familiar with the MN personal protection act. On a side note, I think you would have to be absolutely nuts to break into someones house in rural Texas knowing full well how a property owner or neighbor might respond. Same goes for Florida, CO, Vermont and other states where distance might prohibit the sheriff from arriving in time to break up a crime in progress. Break the law at your own risk.
I refuse to own a gun -...
Back to page topI refuse to own a gun - ever. Guns are bad, m-kay...
Tom, From your comment, I...
Back to page topTom,
From your comment, I assume that police should not have gun either, since guns are bad.
Is this the position of most liberals.
I assume that no one around Obama is carrying a gun, since guns are bad.
I understand the desire to...
Back to page topI understand the desire to own a gun to protect yourself, but I personally just feel like the chances of something bad happening to me or a family member in the house are greater than the chances that I'd actually need a gun and would be able to successfully use it to defend myself and my family.